We've spent a lot of time looking at Christian objections to Judaism, but now I want to spend sometime "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus." (Sorry Michael L. Brown for the pun on words). Some of this material can be found in Dr. Brown's book "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus" volume 1 being that he answered this very objection within his book (page 70-73). Most of this will be my wording however. I want to look into the matter of whether Yeshua came at the time he was supposed to come. First of all, what does the Tanakh say? We're going to look at this first, and then, I want to look at some Talmudic tradition so that Gentiles might be able to answer what the Jews have to say on the matter, and Jews may begin to get a better grasp on where we are at. First of all, how can we know from the Tanakh that Yeshua came in the right period to be called the Messiah? Lets start with Daniel 9:25-26 "
"Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Mashiach, the prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, it shall be built again, with plaza and moat, but in times of distress." Daniel 9:25-26"
So this is discussing the decree to rebuild Israel. When is this mentioned to have occurred? The decree to rebuild Israel is mentioned in Nehemiah 2:1. Lets read it in context starting with 2:1-17 " 1And it came about in the month Nisan, (Z)in the twentieth year of King (AA)Artaxerxes, that wine was before him, and (AB)I took up the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had not been sad in his presence.
2So the king said to me, "Why is your face sad though you are not sick? (AC)This is nothing but sadness of heart." Then I was very much afraid.
3I said to the king, "(AD)Let the king live forever Why should my face not be sad (AE)when the city, the place of my fathers' tombs, lies desolate and its gates have been consumed by fire?"
4Then the king said to me, "What would you request?" (AF)So I prayed to the G-d of heaven.
5I said to the king, "If it please the king, and if your servant has found favor before you, send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers' tombs, that I may rebuild it."
6Then the king said to me, the queen sitting beside him, "How long will your journey be, and when will you return?" So it pleased the king to send me, and (AG)I gave him a definite time.
7And I said to the king, "If it please the king, let letters be given me (AH)for the governors of the provinces beyond the River, that they may allow me to pass through until I come to Judah,
8and a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king's (AI)forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of (AJ)the fortress which is by the [b]temple, for the wall of the city and for the house to which I will go " And the king granted them to me because (AK)the good hand of my G-d was on me.
9Then I came to (AL)the governors of the provinces beyond the River and gave them the king's letters Now (AM)the king had sent with me officers of the army and horsemen.
10When (AN)Sanballat the Horonite and Tobiah the Ammonite official heard about it, it was very displeasing to them that someone had come to seek the welfare of the sons of Israel.
Nehemiah Inspects Jerusalem's Walls 11So I (AO)came to Jerusalem and was there three days.
12And I arose in the night, I and a few men with me. I did not tell anyone what my G-d was putting into my mind to do for Jerusalem and there was no animal with me except the animal on which I was riding.
13So I went out at night by (AP)the Valley Gate in the direction of the Dragon's Well and on to the Refuse Gate, inspecting the walls of Jerusalem (AQ)which were broken down and its (AR)gates which were consumed by fire.
14Then I passed on to (AS)the Fountain Gate and (AT)the King's Pool, but there was no place for my mount to pass.
15So I went up at night by the (AU)ravine and inspected the wall. Then I entered the Valley Gate again and returned.
16The officials did not know where I had gone or what I had done; nor had I as yet told the Jews, the priests, the nobles, the officials or the rest who did the work.
17Then I said to them, "You see the bad situation we are in, that (AV)Jerusalem is desolate and its gates burned by fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem so that we will no longer be a reproach."
So we have the Torah admitting the Messiah will come into Jerusalem around 483 years after the rebuilding of Jerusalem's decree from Nehemiah. So given this was about 445 B.C., what happens nearly 483 years later? Yeshua enters Jerusalem. Working from a decree by Cyrus, we arrive around the birth year of Mashiach. So given the Tanakh, we can demonstrate when the Messiah is supposed to arrive.
Now what does the Talmudic tradition declare? "The world will exist six thousand years. Two thousand years of desolation (Adam to Abraham), two thousand years of Torah (Abraham to around the beginning of what we know as the Common Era) and two thousand years of the Messianic era (the last two thousand years or so); but because our iniquities were many, all this has been lost" (i.e., the Messiah did not come at the expected time;) b. Sanhedrin 97 a-b).
So to the Jews, your Messiah according to your own writings was supposed to come around 2000 years ago? What happened 2000 years ago? This guy Yeshua walked amongst us. We need to view this further in context. The famous Jew, Rashi declares that the above passage from the Talmud means because of Israel's sins, the Messiah did not come. In Rashi's own words "After the 2000 years of Torah, it was G-d's decree that the Messiah would come and the wicked kingdom would come to an end and the subjugation of Israel would be destroyed....the Messiah has not come to this very day." Most traditional Jews will follow what Rashi is talking about to 200 C .E. Problematic in this is that this is an error in the Talmudic tradition, because the Second temple stood for approximately 600 years (the 6th year of King Darius's reign (521 B.C., Ezra 5) 515 B.C. to 70 A.D.http://judaism.about.com/library/1_jerusalem/bl_jerusalemhistory2.htm ), instead of the believed 420 years that the Rabbinical Jews believed in. So Rashi's calculations are off. According to the accurate calculations that we have, the Messiah came around the beginningo f the common era.
Now I want to examine this further by looking at Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananyah declarations from the Talmud. Rabbi Yehoshua declared when the midpoint of the world would be. The Athenian elders argued with Rabbi Yehoshua (this is not the Yeshua of the Brit Hadashah) that "the present should be the midpoint between the two productive eras of the world, the eras of Torah and Mashiach. but obviously he has not come, for you Jews have certainly not been redeemed. We have crushed you and turned you into a nation of ruin, disaster, and despair. The 'midpoint of the world' has manifestly passed by and the Era of Mashiach has not begun. Why, then, do you persist in hoping for his arrival? Why should he come in the future if he did not come at his appointed hour? Is it not clear that the time for his arrival has passed you by forever?" (Sanhedrin 97 a-b).
The Vilna Gaon states that the Athenian elders were unaware of the Talmudic tradition that states "The son of David (the Messiah) will not come until all the government has turned to heresy" (b. Sanhedrin 97a). From page 149 of the Gaon, it explains "When the Elders asked, 'Where is the midpoint of the world?' Rabbi Yehoshua raised his finger and said, "Here!" He was saying that although the Jews had not merited Mashiach's coming by their deeds, nevertheless, the Era of Mashiach had indeed arrived at its appointed time. At 'the midpoint of the world' G-d began turning the wheels of history to insure the ultimate arrival of the scion of David." The purpose further mentioned in the Vilna Gaon states "mankind will realize that the only way to convert himself back into a tru human, a G-d-like being filled with wisdom, love, kindness, and an exalted spirit, is by the acceptance of G-d's dominion. And when G-d demonstrates all of this and man recognizes it, Mashiach will finally come" (p. 150). Thus it further declares from p. 150 "with the advent of the last third of human history; the Era of Mashiach may not be apparent, but it is 'here.'"
Most Jews viewing this who are knowledgeable of their faith will recognize that Rabbi Yehoshua was referring to ropes and measures when asked to prove his point about what he was declaring in regards to what time period we are in. He references 2 Samual 8:2 and Zechariah 13:8-9. "The ropes of King David are the measure of human history. The two-thirds of world history which did not choose to recognize G-d's dominion refused to choose life. But the last third will be directed towards eternal life by a Providence which will lead the Jews step by step to the recognition of G-d. What is the basis of your assertion, asked the Edlers, that "here", in the last third of human history, G-d's mercy is at work and we are in the Era of Mashiach? Answered Rabbi Yehoshua: Remember the ropes of King David and you will learn the ways by which G-d directs his world. They teach us that G-d will never abandon his world, and that ultimately the good for which G-d created it will be realized." (151-152). The Vilna Gaon's interpretation of the Talmudic account states that we are in the age of Mashiach. This was written some 1800 years ago. Now the Vilna Gaon did not believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. So this brings something else up that is very significant. Why did the Orthodox Jewish community reject Yeshua as the Messiah?
Lets take a look further at what the Talmud declares "Why was the first Holy Temple destroyed? Because of three wicked things: idol worship, adultery, and murder. But in the second Temple in which time the Jewish people were occupied studying the Torah and doing good deeds and acts of charity why was it then destroyed? The answer is: It was because of hatred without a cause to teach you, that hate without a cause is equal to these sins and that it is as serious a crime as the three great transgressions of idol worship, adultery, and murder. [Yoma 9]." In the Bible, it states that Yeshua was hated without cause and was rejected. Who do you think this is referring to? Psalms 69:4 warns Israel about doing this "Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal." And in John 15:25 states "But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'"
So who do you think the Rabbis hated without cause? It was Yeshua ha Mashiach, whom the Christian community has relabelled in light of viewing him as a Roman blonde haired, blue eyed gentleman we have totally a misunderstanding of. This is prophetic though my Jewish brethren! If Yeshua has come in the role of the high priest, lets think about this for a minute. That would make him ben Yosef. The story of Yosef is as followed though. What did his brothers see of this Jew when they viewed him? They saw an Egyptian, and because of this, they were unable to recognize him. So has become of Yeshua Ha Mashiach. We have clothed him as a Roman, and now the Jews are unable to recognize him as the Jew that he is! Yeshua Ha Mashiach is Elohim, the annointed one. He is preexistent just as the rabbis taught the Messiah would be. He has put his Earthly kingdom on hold, but will be returning to the Earth in the form of Ben David as he declares from his partial reading of Isaiah 61:1-2 in Luke 4:18-19. He only goes through half of verse 2, so Yeshua tells us the role he has come in. A close paying attention of the Brit Hadashah, now commonly known as the New Testament because of the heretic Marcion's separation of Old Testament and New Testament, whom not even the Christians admire (ironic isn't it?) will reveal that in the first 4 books, he has fulfilled the role of High Priest, and did not come in the role of the King of Kings and establish his kingdom on the Earth. We know that he's returning because in Acts 1:6-11 Yeshua and the messenger of the Lord declares " 6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Ruach Hakodesh comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Yeshua, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Jews want a sign, and here it is! I want to stop here because we see that Yeshua is telling us. Most Christians will read through this and say "Samaria, Gentiles!" No. Samaria was the capital of Israel. It was the burial place of Obadiah, Elisha and Yochanan the Immerser (known to Christians as John the Baptist). It is defined as such here - http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=109&letter=S Samaria is mentioned all through the Tanakh as being associated with Israel. Yeshua is telling us to do what here? Go to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles. Christians have not been doing this, and on their behalf and because I once was one, I apologize! I have found the errors of my ways and am trying to help my Christian friends to do the same. Where do we find the role of ben David in the Brit Hadashah?Revelation talks about the role he will fulfill when he arrives a second time to Earth. He will establish his kingdom after the 7th shofar is blown (and we are going to put away the viewpoints of Preterism in a later article!). If paid close attention to, he is riding a white horse. He rode a donkey (another Rabbinical Messianic sign) into Jerusalem the first time. The 2nd time he will be riding in on a white horse on the clouds, which means he will be king of kings and lord of lords. He is not King of Kings and Lord of Lords over all the Earth yet. But my Jewish brethren, you are looking for ben David when looking at Yeshua when you should be seeking the first role that he fulfilled instead. The role of ben David has not been established yet, but it will in the future, and the prophecies given still to the Jews (and only to the Jews) within the Brit Hadashah demonstrate this. Further evidenced is that we have no further way to trace a Messiah since the destruction of the temple. Perhaps G-d did this for a reason? I pray that you will consider Yeshua ha Mashiach as your Messiah. Not Jesus Christ, Yeshua ha Mashiach.
Regarding the Mashiakh:
ReplyDelete”There is an unequivocal criteria for discerning the Mashiakhַ or a navi ( lit. "the one bringing"; i.e., a prophet; one who calls, proclaims, prophesies): Dәvâr•im′ 13.1-6. תּוֹרָה (Torah) sets forth the acid test, whether the alleged Mashiakh ( מָשִׁיחַ) or נָבִיא (navi) advocates to keep, or displace, תּוֹרָה. Partial (i.e., selective) observance entails rejection of מִצווֹת (mitzwot; commandments) that are non-selected, which is rejection of תּוֹרָה in its indivisible whole. There is no middle ground.”
( Quote “1993 covenant” by Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben Dawid (found here: www.netzarim.co.il) (slightly edited by me).
A logical analysis (found in the above Netzarim-website (including the scientific premises the analysis is based on) (it is the website of the only legitimate Netzarim-group)) (including the logical implications of the research by Ben-Gurion Univ. Prof. of Linguistics Elisha Qimron of Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT) of all extant source documents of “the gospel of Matthew” (which is a redaction of Netzarim Hebrew Matityahu (which was perfectly in harmony with Torah) and anti-Torah) and archeology proves that the historical Ribi Yehosuha ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) (ben Yoseiph) from Nazareth and his talmidim (apprentice-students), called the Netzarim, taught and lived Torah all of their lives; and that Netzarim and Christianity were always antithetical.
To be one of Ribi Yehoshuas Netzarim-talmidim (apprentice-students) one must do likewise (learn more in the above website). One mitzwah is Torah is subordination to a beit-din. Those whom want to follow Ribi Yehoshua must subordinate to the beit-din ha-Netzarim.
The Christian Jzus of the “gospels” contradicts Torah with his words in several instances (documented in the above Netzarim-website), and thus didn’t fullfill the Messianic prophecies.
To the contray, the historical Ribi Yehoshua did.
Anders Branderud
Anders Branderud, I'm going to need you to respond via e-mail next time. I do not want to restrict privileges for posting on this blog to my readers any further than I have already, but you may very well cause me to do so if we have to have this discussion in the future. My e-mail is hamashiachagape@yahoo.com. Feel free to e-mail me anytime, and I will be happy to post a correspondence with your given permission onto my blog. I am not so much opposed to you posting information onto the blog as I am, that I am a busy individual, focusing in on my studies at my Yeshiva, doing research and study for this Yeshiva, on top of other various side projects that I am working on, including being an editor at a website for one of my friends. Given this, I don't want information posted unfairly onto my blog without enough time to be able to respond, so I require and encourage people with issues to respond with objections to ANY material that they have to my e-mail.
ReplyDeleteBefore I begin with the response, I need to remind our readers as well as you what the ANE Scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown, one of the top 5 Hebrew scholars of our time actually has to state about the "Christian Jesus." He is the Rebbe Yehoshua ben Yosef whom the Jews are seeking, but this information has been distorted in large part due to the Catholic church. Is it any wonder that the Rabbi Yehoshua you are presenting to my readers here did not even know whether he was going to end up in heaven when he died? Some Messiah we have there. He can't even save himself, how is he going to save the Jewish people? Wasn't there a rabbi who once stated, that "if a blind man leads a blind man, they will surely end up in a ditch." So back to Yeshua. First of all, it is widely recognized that he was Jewish, and kept Jewish tradition by most Chrisitans even. His name was Yeshua, not Jesus, which is important to remember given his Hebrewic background and the definition of what Yehoshua/Yeshua means (YHWH is salvation). Furthermore, Jesus is an English transliteration according to Dr. Brown, who is well studied in Greek and Hebrew of the Greek Iesous. This can further be translated into Hebrew as Yeshua. In other words there is no deviation of the name. As paraphrased by Dr. Brown on this issue, he believes it is a silly assertion, though it seems based off of your construction above, to believe that the word "Jesus" is founded around the name of "Zeus." Given Dr. Brown's expertise in his field, this understanding is to be highly valued. Furthermore, Yeshua does not teach, nor does he not abide with the Torah on any issue. I remind you that in his Sermon on the Mt., Matthew 5 (at least the credible documents that we contain, not the Shemtov Matthew which we will get to in a second) none of the information he presents is in disagreement with the Torah. It is in disagreement with halakah, the Oral tradition.
Alright, now responding to your post. Specifically I am aiming at your resources. First of all, a careful analysis of the Hebrew Matthew AS WE HAVE IT TODAY (I will come out and tell my readers that I do value an original writing of the Gospel accounts into the language of Hebrew) will demonstrate a corruption in its text. Most of what Shemtov utilized with the text is from the worthless document the "Toledoth Yeshu." This is first off incomplete, and secondly highly distorted. This text appeared roughly around the 10th century A.D. The original Hebrew Matthew that the early church fathers attest to was destroyed in the library of Caesarea around the 5th to 6th century A.D. Thus we do not have an accurate copy of the Hebrew Matthew today. That you keep drawing your material primarily from this document highly concerns me after hearing your deconversion story from the Christian faith (as I understand it, you used to be a Baptist minister). The earliest extant documents that we contain of the book of Matthew is found in Greek, and when translated into Hebrew, it is easy to do so because of the Hebrew idioms. The Greek wording does not concern us due to its accuracy within its text and in the sense of the Hebrewic fashion that it is written.
ReplyDeleteIf you'd like to keep drawing references from this document, may I first ask you to verify this document by drawing it from the original 1st century copy which you assume we have found before taking you seriously. I have done my homework on this document, and may I remind you that it is found in a library, that declares and makes the claim that it is drawn from the orthodox rabbi Shemtov, who wrote this material in order to keep the Jews away from accepting Christianity during the Inquisition. Though the methodology of the attempts to convert were corrupted during this time period, you should still understand that this in no way demonstrates how a true Christian would behave or view evangelism according to the Gospel as it was not taught to evangelize in this method. While Nehemiah Gordon is good at translating the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is where his primary focus tends to be, and not on the Brit Hadashah, his understanding of the Shemtov Matthew is sketchy at best. Secondly, George Howard has already been identified by Tim Hegg, a language scholar who works alongside another language scholar as having utilized sketchy Hebrew within his renderings and attempts to draw up the original Hebrew Matthew. But we should expect that since he is utilizing the Shemtov copy of Matthew in order to construct this understanding. I will refer my readers to http://www.torahresource.com/DuTillet/HistOfDuTillet.pdf and http://www.torahresource.com/Matthew.html. Du Tillet is a reconstruction of the Shemtov Matthew as it was given to this Catholic leader during this time period. The Shemtov Matthew is quite embarassing as a scholarly resource, as admitted by Dr. Tim Hegg, widely recognized Christian Apologist James Patrick Holding (see -http://www.tektonics.org/lp/oliver01.html on his understanding of the Toledoth Yeshu. He also criticizes another skeptic of the faith, Gerald Massey, for making this same mistake in the 19th century - http://www.tektonics.org/lp/massjc.html) and myself. Might I let it be known to you that I have been familiarized with the argument you're trying to present for the past 4-5 years. It is crucially weak.
Secondly, the only problem that Yeshua had a problem with had to do with what you identify as the Oral Torah. That is, the Talmud. The Torah-teachers, and not so much the Torah in and of itself, which he declares that we should follow every jot and tittle according to his very wording. Yes the Talmud does declare that it can be dated back to the time of Moshe. However, a careful detailed observance of this document, and tracing back to the timelines of when the rabbis lived can merely trace this document to around the time of the Babylonian Captivity. Interestingly enough, there is much correlation between the concepts of Babylonian paganism as it relates to the Talmud. It is never documented as having existed during the time of Moses according to the Torah, and neither is there any evidence of it from the Talmud. When it was passed from Moses to Joshua, it is described as a written document (thus it is the written Torah that is of interest to us, not the Talmud).
ReplyDeleteYou may feel free to utilize this document as long as you wish, however, keep in mind that a mindful studied individual usually refrains from utilizing these resources as authoritative. In other words, the arguments you present on your website will not be taken credible by any scholarly read individual. So if you wish to be taken seriously, I would encourage you to discontinue this form of argumentation. In the meantime, as always, my prayers are with you seeking to understand the true Jewish Mashiach.